The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
Railway, has been Grade II listed.
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>Railway, has been Grade II listed.
><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>

Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
on our system" policy.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>
> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
> on our system" policy.

I’m amazed that folk can’t manage to travel without the urge for an
alcoholic drink. I’m partial to a glass of wine or a stiff G&T, but am more
than happy to do without.

On 13/12/2023 17:59, Graeme Wall wrote:
> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>

But, in other news, the excellent bar on Carlisle Station, '301 miles
from London' has closed down, 'terms of the lease' were used as a reason
by the Owner.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>
> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
> on our system" policy.

Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

In message <ulcuiv$v8c1$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:53:19 on Wed, 13 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>
>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>> on our system" policy.
>
>I’m amazed that folk can’t manage to travel without the urge for an
>alcoholic drink. I’m partial to a glass of wine or a stiff G&T, but am more
>than happy to do without.

Other TOCs are happy to sell drinks at the buffet, and supply free
drinks to First Class passengers. If you are going to be on a train
8hrs on a particular day, it's part of the experience.
--
Roland Perry

On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>><https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>
> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
> on our system" policy.

They're consulting on changing it:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715

Mike

Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>
>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>> on our system" policy.
>
> They're consulting on changing it:
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>
> Mike
>

Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.

In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>
>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>> on our system" policy.
>>
>> They're consulting on changing it:
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>
>Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.

My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.

I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
beverages <sigh>.

And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
meant is was very likely to become permanent.

Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.

--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>
>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>
>>> They're consulting on changing it:
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>>
>> Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>> the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.
>
> My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
> in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.
>
> I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
> brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
> off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
> beverages <sigh>.
>
> And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
> behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
> meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>
> Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.

It was.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:53:19 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>
>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>> on our system" policy.
>
>I’m amazed that folk can’t manage to travel without the urge for an
>alcoholic drink. I’m partial to a glass of wine or a stiff G&T, but am more
>than happy to do without.

Bully for you. If I'm on a train from Inverness to Wick I like a beer
or a wine. If I pay an adult fare I want to be treated as an adult.

On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

>On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>
>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>
>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>> on our system" policy.
>
>Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.

So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
legal activity to boost ridership?

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 06:59:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>
>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>
>>> They're consulting on changing it:
>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>>
>>Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>>the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.
>
>My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
>in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.
>
>I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
>brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
>off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
>beverages <sigh>.
>
>And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
>behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
>meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>
>Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.

Yes.

I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
steaming drunk.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 06:59:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> They're consulting on changing it:
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>>>
>>> Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>>> the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.
>>
>> My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
>> in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.
>>
>> I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
>> brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
>> off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
>> beverages <sigh>.
>>
>> And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
>> behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
>> meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>>
>> Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.
>
> Yes.
>
> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
> steaming drunk.

When drinking on all TfL services was banned by the famously
straight-laced, abstemious, party-hating mayor, I think the argument was
that people would get on already drunk and then get really tanked up and
aggressive on board. Somewhat surprisingly, the rule is largely followed.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>
>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>> on our system" policy.
>>
>>Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>
>So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>legal activity to boost ridership?
>
What law says it is legal to booze on a train?

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:36:29 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 06:59:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> They're consulting on changing it:
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>>>
>>>Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>>>the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.
>>
>>My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
>>in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.
>>
>>I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
>>brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
>>off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
>>beverages <sigh>.
>>
>>And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
>>behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
>>meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>>
>>Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.
>
>Yes.
>
>I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>steaming drunk.
>
You sound like you haven't used many trains beyond local services.

On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>
>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>
>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>
>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>
> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?

The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.

In message <ulete0$1cpis$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:45:51 on Thu, 14 Dec
2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee
>>><alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>
>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>
>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>
>The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
>a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.

And of course whatever the Trades Description Act is called this week,
with numerous TOCs advertising trolley and buffet service, as well as
free drinks in First Class.
--
Roland Perry

In message <3imlnil7hiljerpah600g2g05d54u5if1r@4ax.com>, at 10:36:29 on
Thu, 14 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
>>brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
>>off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
>>beverages <sigh>.
>>
>>And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
>>behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
>>meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>>
>>Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.
>
>Yes.
>
>I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>steaming drunk.

I'm willing to believe that certain services patronised by football
so-called 'supporters', might qualify for the latter. But that's not an
excuse for a blanket ban on all services every day.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ulete0$1cpis$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:45:51 on Thu, 14 Dec
> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>> On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee
>>>> <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>
>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>
>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>
>> The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
>> a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.
>
> And of course whatever the Trades Description Act is called this week,
> with numerous TOCs advertising trolley and buffet service, as well as
> free drinks in First Class.

There’s a history of dry trains in Scotland, so presumably this isn’t just
done to be killjoys. IIRC some of the LNER trains from Aberdeen even in the
morning are dry.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 06:59:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> They're consulting on changing it:
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>>>
>>> Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>>> the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.
>>
>> My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
>> in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.
>>
>> I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
>> brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
>> off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
>> beverages <sigh>.
>>
>> And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
>> behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
>> meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>>
>> Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.
>
> Yes.
>
> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
> steaming drunk.
>

Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home. Now a
dry service.

Am 14.12.2023 um 11:36 schrieb Ken:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 06:59:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <uld74r$10os1$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:19:23 on Wed, 13 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 18:42:59 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> They're consulting on changing it:
>>>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-67648715
>>>
>>> Besides, in my recent experience the ban is not enforced. Gripper ignored
>>> the can on the table of the drunk whilst checking his ticket.
>>
>> My experience having done Inverness-Kyle, Mallaig-Fort_William-Glasgow
>> in the daytime a couple of months ago, is that it was enforced.
>>
>> I had a long discussion with one of the grippers, and they said it was
>> brought in "because of Covid", and people needing to take their masks
>> off to drink. Which of course would also apply to non-alcoholic
>> beverages <sigh>.
>>
>> And that they'd since decided that the subsequent reduction in drunken
>> behaviour (presumably mainly on Glasgow suburban services late at night)
>> meant is was very likely to become permanent.
>>
>> Although the BBC story says it was already banned after 9pm.
>
> Yes.
>
> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
> steaming drunk.

Well, I'd say that banning drinks on trains going to/from soccer matches
would make a hell of a lot of difference in Germany. I know several
people who stay away from trains on Saturdays (or verify there's no home
game before doing their weekend planning). Having a few hundred drunk
away-fans in a single train can be extremely unpleasant.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:45:51 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:

>On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>
>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>
>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>
>The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
>a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.
>
That is "lawful"; "legal" means there is a specific law supporting it.
e.g. suicide is lawful but there is no law making it legal rather than
the legal prohibition being abolished in England and Wales in 1961.
The effective difference is between toleration and a specific right.

On 14/12/2023 18:36, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:45:51 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>
>> On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>
>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>
>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>
>> The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
>> a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.
>>
> That is "lawful"; "legal" means there is a specific law supporting it.
> e.g. suicide is lawful but there is no law making it legal rather than
> the legal prohibition being abolished in England and Wales in 1961.
> The effective difference is between toleration and a specific right.

I thank my learned colleague for the correction.

In that case, it is not "legal" to booze on a train, but it is lawful
(unless accompanied by some illegal act), which is what matters here.

On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 15:28:56 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulete0$1cpis$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:45:51 on Thu, 14 Dec
>> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>>> On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee
>>>>> <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>
>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>
>>> The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
>>> a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.
>>
>> And of course whatever the Trades Description Act is called this week,
>> with numerous TOCs advertising trolley and buffet service, as well as
>> free drinks in First Class.
>
>There’s a history of dry trains in Scotland, so presumably this isn’t just
>done to be killjoys. IIRC some of the LNER trains from Aberdeen even in the
>morning are dry.
>
Further south, I don't recall seeing any of the usual prohibition
notices for specific trains/dates since some time before COVID but
that could be because I am generally at the arrival end of the
journeys. The current tactic observed at two or three London football
grounds seems to be to get tanked up between arrival of the train and
going to the ground later but not with any obvious significant degree
of intoxication.