On 15/12/2023 15:58, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <0t9onilsm15l09sjpre9k50p0f00r8qfk5@4ax.com>, at 10:19:26 on
> Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:38:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>>
>>>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home.
>>>> Now a
>>>> dry service.
>>>
>>> All the way to London?
>>
>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket
>
> I only paid a little more than twice that for a 7-day all lines First
> Class rover. £580. And the staff treat you like royalty.
I live on the periphery of the Freedom of South West and Severn and
Solent rovers and they often work out more economical that normal tickets,

However their value to me has been reduced now that XC and gWr have
withdrawn their HST's.

>
>> and had nowhere to charge his phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>

On 15/12/2023 15:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulh2fp$1r2je$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:24:26 on Fri, 15 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>>
>>>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home.
>>>> Now a
>>>> dry service.
>>>
>>> All the way to London?
>>
>> Seems the ban ends at Newcastle.
>>
>> https://www.lner.co.uk/support/faq/on-board/catering/which-trains-are-no-al/
>>
>> Which trains can't I drink alcohol on?
>> The alcohol-free policy will apply every Friday, on the 09.52 Aberdeen to
>> London King's Cross train, between Aberdeen and Newcastle (and all
>> calling
>> points in between).
>>
>> We expect a number of large groups to be travelling on this train, so to
>> help make it a pleasant experience for everyone, we'll be operating an
>> alcohol-free policy for part of the journey.
>>
>> This means that alcohol cannot be brought onto or purchased on board our
>> trains at any stop between Aberdeen and Newcastle, and customers may be
>> searched before boarding. Additionally, alcoholic drinks will not be
>> served
>> as part of the complimentary food and drink offer in First Class until
>> after Newcastle.
>
> Because those large groups of troublemakers tend to buy First Class
> tickets??

If they thought they could get alcohol they would.

On 15/12/2023 16:00, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulh8i5$1rpqa$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:08:06 on Fri, 15 Dec
> 2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>> I have long wished that drinking alcohol was only done in private and
>> there was an offence of 'being drunk in a public place' which was
>> enforced.
>>
>> Just treat it like any other addiction.
>
> I'd certainly support a national ban on smoking in all public places
> (not just indoors)

Only if this ban includes e-fags.

On 15/12/2023 16:56, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulh9v3$1s5rk$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:32:03 on Fri, 15 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>>> the population.
>>
>> Sod the population, many of the passengers are tourists.
>>
>>> It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff
>>
>> Ha! Gateline in the Highlands, manned by giraffes.
>>
>>> and BTP the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the
>>> already staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments
>>> about what time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>>
>
> There’s gate lines at the main stations in the central belt. It’s much
> easier to have blanket rules that cover Scotrail than get into arguments
> with drunks as to whether or not that particular route is covered. As to
> tourists. I’d imagine they might prefer a non threatening environment on
> tneir train.

I'd prefer an environment where football and rugby followers are banned
from trains, and boats, and planes.

In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> I'd believe they might not serve alcohol before 10am, which could be a
>> 365-day thing in Scotland, but only Sundays in England.
>>
>> I wonder if Scottish airport departure lounges have that restriction
>> too?
>
>The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>license permitting it.

I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such an
application was bound to fail.

>Trains are exempt from licensing - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/
>2005/16 section 124 exempts "an aircraft, a hovercraft

Full of eels?

>or a railway vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any period
>ending with its departure when preparations are being made for the
>journey, and any period after its arrival at its destination when it
>continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made the
>journey (or any part of it)."
>
>As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated airports are
>exempt from licensing, and then only airside - Aberdeen, Edinburgh,
>Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and Sumburgh. Landside, and in other
>airports, they need a license as normal.
>
>https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act-2005-section-142-
>guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/
>
>Mike

--
Roland Perry

In message <ulk8us$2dvjm$5@dont-email.me>, at 13:33:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>I'd prefer an environment where football and rugby followers are banned
>from trains, and boats, and planes.

I'd add stag/hen parties, but I doubt the airlines in question would
agree to relinquish the patronage.
--
Roland Perry

On 16/12/2023 13:33, Coffee wrote:
> I'd prefer an environment where football and rugby followers are banned
> from trains, and boats, and planes.

They are a good argument for Soylent Green. :-)

On 16/12/2023 15:09, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> I'd believe they might not serve alcohol before 10am, which could be a
>>> 365-day thing in Scotland, but only Sundays in England.
>>>
>>> I wonder if Scottish airport departure lounges have that restriction
>>> too?
>>
>> The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>> consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>> license permitting it.
>
> I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such an
> application was bound to fail.

Licences permitting early drinking have certainly been issued in
Edinburgh for pubs popular with shift workers, etc., but I don't know
of any recent new ones.

>> Trains are exempt from licensing - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/
>> 2005/16 section 124 exempts "an aircraft, a hovercraft
>
> Full of eels?

A different set of rules applies if they're eely.

>> or a railway vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any period
>> ending with its departure when preparations are being made for the
>> journey, and any period after its arrival at its destination when it
>> continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made the
>> journey (or any part of it)."
>>
>> As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated airports are
>> exempt from licensing, and then only airside - Aberdeen, Edinburgh,
>> Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and Sumburgh. Landside, and in
>> other
>> airports, they need a license as normal.
>>
>> https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act-2005-section-142-
>> guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/

On 16/12/2023 18:36, Certes wrote:
> A different set of rules applies if they're eely.

Groan
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:47:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulijo2$235a6$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:06 on Fri, 15 Dec
> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>Inverness has gatelines,
>
> Not every platform, and not operating at all hours.

The only un-barriered platform is 7, which is debatably in Inverness
station at all (it's at the far end of the car park). There are two
separate barrier lines in the rest of the station, for platforms 1 and 2
and for platforms 3-6.

> eg When we arrived in the summer on the one-per-day LNER from London
> (and the soon-departing sleeper was on the other face of the platform),
> not only were the barriers locked open, but there was a wide open
> side-gate to the street.

The barriers are usually left open on 1-2 for the Sleeper and Highland
Chieftain - and usually there's no other trains in 1-2 at that time. Both
trains arrive and depart fairly close in time in both the morning and
evening, so it doesn't affect most of the day. And the gate to Falcon
Square is landside of the barrier. There is a service gate further up the
platform, but that's never supposed to be left open.

> And of course one can change trains airside, and the previous time we
> were there, we boarded a train for Dingwall, where there are no barriers
> at all. That again was late enough at night the barriers probably
> weren't in action.

Most of the trains to the north go from inside the barriers. I don't know
why they bother using 7, it's rather inconvenient and they're not short of
platforms. I've never seen the barriers on 3-6 left open, they seem to
operate whenever the station is open.

Mike

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:09:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>>consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>>license permitting it.
>
> I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such an
> application was bound to fail.

That's down to the Council. I've just had a look at Highland Council's
policy, and it does give an earliest start time of 11am for bars
(Restaurants and distillery tours can start at 9am). However it does also
indicate it's not an absolute ban and an earlier time can potentially be
granted if it can be justified. Also the Council can change the policy -
unlike the off-sales restriction, where the Council simply has no power to
grant a license for sales between 10pm and 10am.

Mike

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:08:06 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>I have long wished that drinking alcohol was only done in private and
>there was an offence of 'being drunk in a public place' which was enforced.
>
s.12 Licensing Act 1872, distinct from drunk and disorderly or drunk
and incapable which are what will usually get you nicked (if they
don't have you under the now well-worn Public Order Act). Being
quietly drunk doesn't generally interfere with others so is often
ignored until it turns into a health problem.

>Just treat it like any other addiction.
>
That gets more complicated. Alcoholics will often not be "drunk"
unlike someone who gets ratted once a week/month on much lower
quantities of alcohol.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:16:45 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 18:36:18 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:45:51 +0000, Certes <Certes@example.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 14/12/2023 12:37, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>
>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>
>>>The same one that says it is legal to chat, read and do the crossword:
>>>a general principle that we can do anything that isn't prohibited.
>>>
>>That is "lawful"; "legal" means there is a specific law supporting it.
>>e.g. suicide is lawful but there is no law making it legal rather than
>>the legal prohibition being abolished in England and Wales in 1961.
>>The effective difference is between toleration and a specific right.
>
>That's not required in the UK system.
>
There has never been a UK legal system.

>You, or a private company, can
>do anything you like that hasn't been banned somehow.
>
Not in Scotland and possibly not now elsewhere in the UK. Judgments
can change so that something not specifically prohibited in the past
is deemed incompatible with modern society, e.g. rape in marriage. You
can also get matters which had not been previously judged which become
specifically illegal, e.g. slavery in Scotland.

>The exception is
>Government at all levels which can only act within statutory powers.
>
Not all powers are statutory, some can derive from Common Law, be
natural/inherent or be a non-statutory duty rather than a power.
Powers of a local authority in Scotland don't inevitably need statute
being more in keeping with the above principle that anything not
otherwise proscribed is lawful -
"A local authority has power to do anything which it considers is
likely to promote or improve the well-being of—
(a)its area and persons within that area; or
(b)either of those."
[s.20 Local Government in Scotland Act 2003]
i.e. more a case of "Is there anything to stop us doing it." rather
than "Have we got the power to do it?".

>This differs from other legal systems.
>

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:11:10 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>>Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>
>>>So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>
>>What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>
>The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>
English

>system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>or otherwise.
>
>Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>something otherwise legal
>
An occupier controlling its own territory, the same as in England.

>in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:32:03 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>
>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>
>>> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>>> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>>> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>>> or otherwise.
>>>
>>> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>>> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>>> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.
>>
>> An approach that works fine until there’s large scale or systematic abuse
>> and enforcement becomes effectively impossible, which is why there’s a ban
>> now. Defunding public services has consequences.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
>Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>the population.
>
WRT drugs that is because the Home Office refuses to allow measures
wanted by the Scottish Government which it could permit under the
Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (whose subject matter is reserved to
Westminster). That Act has arguably helped to expand the illicit drugs
trade throughout the UK by turning a previous small problem into a big
one by shifting addicts from doctors' surgeries into the hands of
illegal suppliers whose business has flourished ever since. The HO
prevents users in Scotland from being dealt with as a health problem
more than a criminal problem.

>It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff and BTP
>the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the already
>staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments about what
>time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:12:18 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:39:35 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>>
>>>I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>steaming drunk.
>>>
>>You sound like you haven't used many trains beyond local services.
>
>How odd, when I've covered just about every inch of the UK network, in
>may cases multiple times.
>
You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:45:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>
>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>
>>Were the sockets not working?
>
>By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
>sockets at every bay.
>
The last time I was in First Class on an HST from Reading to
Paddington pre-COVID the upper sockets were too close to the table to
allow a "wall wart" power supply to be plugged in and the lower
sockets (between the seats?) left the cable a bit tight to the phone
on the table.
<snip>

In message <ulkqno$2gq7g$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:36:41 on Sat, 16 Dec
2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 16/12/2023 15:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> I'd believe they might not serve alcohol before 10am, which could be a
>>>> 365-day thing in Scotland, but only Sundays in England.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder if Scottish airport departure lounges have that restriction
>>>> too?
>>>
>>> The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>>> consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>>> license permitting it.

>> I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such
>>an application was bound to fail.
>
>Licences permitting early drinking have certainly been issued in
>Edinburgh for pubs popular with shift workers, etc., but I don't know
>of any recent new ones.

While I would not want a pint of Fosters with my breakfast, there's a
well known chain of pubs which does a tolerably good fry-up. Often the
only place open at 7am (including Sundays). Invariably open by 8am, or
4am at airports.

10am seems relatively late to be opening the bar at such a place,
however. Half an hour into weekday off-peak for train travel for
example.

>>> Trains are exempt from licensing - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/
>>> 2005/16 section 124 exempts "an aircraft, a hovercraft
>> Full of eels?
>
>A different set of rules applies if they're eely.
>
>>> or a railway vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any
>>>period ending with its departure when preparations are being made
>>>for the journey, and any period after its arrival at its destination
>>>when it continues to be occupied by those (or any of those) who made
>>>the journey (or any part of it)."
>>>
>>> As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated airports
>>>are exempt from licensing, and then only airside - Aberdeen,
>>>Edinburgh, Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and Sumburgh.
>>>Landside, and in other airports, they need a license as normal.

Landside at Gatwick, the Wetherspoons opens at 4am.

>>> https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act-2005-section-142-
>>> guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <ull8n0$2ijdi$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:35:12 on Sat, 16 Dec
2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:09:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>>The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>>>consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>>>license permitting it.
>>
>> I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such an
>> application was bound to fail.
>
>That's down to the Council. I've just had a look at Highland Council's
>policy, and it does give an earliest start time of 11am for bars
>(Restaurants and distillery tours can start at 9am). However it does also
>indicate it's not an absolute ban and an earlier time can potentially be
>granted if it can be justified. Also the Council can change the policy -
>unlike the off-sales restriction, where the Council simply has no power to
>grant a license for sales between 10pm and 10am.

Not that they are as common as they used to be, I wonder what rules
apply to mini-bars in hotel rooms.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ull8n0$2ijdi$2@dont-email.me>, at 22:35:12 on Sat, 16 Dec
> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:09:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>>> The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>>>> consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>>>> license permitting it.
>>>
>>> I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such an
>>> application was bound to fail.
>>
>> That's down to the Council. I've just had a look at Highland Council's
>> policy, and it does give an earliest start time of 11am for bars
>> (Restaurants and distillery tours can start at 9am). However it does also
>> indicate it's not an absolute ban and an earlier time can potentially be
>> granted if it can be justified. Also the Council can change the policy -
>> unlike the off-sales restriction, where the Council simply has no power to
>> grant a license for sales between 10pm and 10am.
>
> Not that they are as common as they used to be, I wonder what rules
> apply to mini-bars in hotel rooms.

https://www.john-gaunt.co.uk/news/hotel-mini-bars-to-license-or-not-to-license

Recent trade press reports have indicated a trend away from mini bars in
bedrooms at hotels. It is perhaps a timely reminder of the question of when
and whether residential rooms/hotel bedrooms/letting rooms should be
included within the licensed area for licensed premises.

Certainly for most full service hotels we would generally advocate the
inclusion of bedrooms within the licensed area to remove any question of
provision of licensed activity by the sale of alcohol into rooms without a
premises licence, but it is not always the case, or necessary.

Where there are mini bars then the rooms should always be licensed by
inclusion in the licence, but if there is no mini bar and no room service
there will generally be no need to include such bedrooms.
If there is room service then we would suggest inclusion to be on the safe
side.

The only down side to inclusion would seem to be that if alterations are to
be undertaken to the residential rooms (and even if there are no
alterations to any bar areas etc) then this may require an application to
the licensing authority to vary the premises licence, which has cost
implications.

It is an area that to the best of our knowledge has never been fully
tested!

On 17/12/2023 08:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulkqno$2gq7g$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:36:41 on Sat, 16 Dec
> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>> On 16/12/2023 15:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> I'd believe they might not serve alcohol before 10am, which could be a
>>>>> 365-day thing in Scotland, but only Sundays in England.
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder if Scottish airport departure lounges have that restriction
>>>>> too?
>>>>
>>>> The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>>>> consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>>>> license permitting it.
>
>>>  I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such
>>> an  application was bound to fail.
>>
>> Licences permitting early drinking have certainly been issued in
>> Edinburgh for pubs popular with shift workers, etc., but I don't know
>> of any recent new ones.
>
> While I would not want a pint of Fosters with my breakfast, there's a
> well known chain of pubs which does a tolerably good fry-up. Often the
> only place open at 7am (including Sundays). Invariably open by 8am, or
> 4am at airports.
>
> 10am seems relatively late to be opening the bar at such a place,
> however. Half an hour into weekday off-peak for train travel for example.
>
>>>> Trains are exempt from licensing - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/
>>>> 2005/16 section 124 exempts "an aircraft, a hovercraft
>>>  Full of eels?
>>
>> A different set of rules applies if they're eely.
>>
>>>> or a railway vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any
>>>> period  ending with its departure when preparations are being made
>>>> for the  journey, and any period after its arrival at its
>>>> destination when it  continues to be occupied by those (or any of
>>>> those) who made the  journey (or any part of it)."
>>>>
>>>> As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated airports
>>>> are  exempt from licensing, and then only airside - Aberdeen,
>>>> Edinburgh,  Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and Sumburgh.
>>>> Landside, and in  other  airports, they need a license as normal.
>
> Landside at Gatwick, the Wetherspoons opens at 4am.
>
>>>> https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act-2005-section-142-
>>>> guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/

Wetherspoons does a good business in breakfasts. Are they allowed to
serve alcohol as that hour?

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 02:00:26 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:12:18 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:39:35 +0000, Charles Ellson
>><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>>difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>>steaming drunk.
>>>>
>>>You sound like you haven't used many trains beyond local services.
>>
>>How odd, when I've covered just about every inch of the UK network, in
>>may cases multiple times.
>>
>You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?

It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.

I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 02:44:16 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:38:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>>
>>>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home. Now a
>>>> dry service.
>>>
>>> All the way to London?
>>
>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>
>
>Were the sockets not working?
>
There seemed to be very few of them and no empty seats. He sat in
first to charge his phone and was allowed to stay for a while for that
purpose. Once turfed out he sat on the floor next to the trolley.
>
>Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:45:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>
>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>
>>Were the sockets not working?
>
>By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
>sockets at every bay.
>
No, his ticket was standard. The £250 was to somewhere like
Sunderland. And he could probably not be considered a reliable
narrator.

>When I was on a train this summer from Inverness to Kyle, there were no
>sockets (despite the literature suggesting there might be). So I Tweeted
>Scotrail to enquire. They said (knowing exactly which train I was on)
>that every seat had a socket.
>
>But I already knew that wasn't true, and subsequently doing a survey up
>and down the carriages, the only socket was the one for cleaning staff
>hotel power in the vestibule. (Which often have notices on them saying
>that passengers shouldn't use).
>
>On the good side, at least there were patches of mobile connectivity,
>and they replied at all, even if it was a blatant lie.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 02:00:26 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:12:18 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:39:35 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>>>
>>>> You sound like you haven't used many trains beyond local services.
>>>
>>> How odd, when I've covered just about every inch of the UK network, in
>>> may cases multiple times.
>>>
>> You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>> posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>> drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?
>
> It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
> heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
> on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
> every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.
>
> I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
> my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.
>

Because blanket bans are much easier to communicate and enforce. You will
find a similar philosophy in schools where blanket rules are set to stop a
minority causing problems at the expense of inconvenience for the majority.