On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:32:03 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>
>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>
>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>
>>> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>>> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>>> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>>> or otherwise.
>>>
>>> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>>> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>>> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.
>>
>> An approach that works fine until there’s large scale or systematic abuse
>> and enforcement becomes effectively impossible, which is why there’s a ban
>> now. Defunding public services has consequences.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
>Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>the population. It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff and BTP
>the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the already
>staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments about what
>time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.

The only time I've been nervous while on public transport was about 30
years ago after coming down from Mallaig to Glasgow on a Saturday
afternoon, and transferring to a mid-evening train to Edinburgh. The
state of the majority of passengers was atrocious.

More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.

Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:32:03 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>>
>>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>>
>>>> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>>>> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>>>> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>>>> or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>>>> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>>>> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.
>>>
>>> An approach that works fine until there’s large scale or systematic abuse
>>> and enforcement becomes effectively impossible, which is why there’s a ban
>>> now. Defunding public services has consequences.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>> the population. It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff and BTP
>> the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the already
>> staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments about what
>> time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>
> The only time I've been nervous while on public transport was about 30
> years ago after coming down from Mallaig to Glasgow on a Saturday
> afternoon, and transferring to a mid-evening train to Edinburgh. The
> state of the majority of passengers was atrocious.
>
> More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
> Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
> staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.
>

York was infested with drunken hen parties last time we were there.

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 09:11:32 -0800
Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
>Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
>staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.

Newcastle is just a city of slags. I don't know what it is about the culture
in that corner of the country but they take essex and turn it up to 11.

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 09:11:32 -0800
> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
>> Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
>> staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.
>
> Newcastle is just a city of slags. I don't know what it is about the culture
> in that corner of the country but they take essex and turn it up to 11.
>
>

Not at all. The folk there are really genuinely friendly.

On 15/12/2023 16:58, Tweed wrote:
> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home. Now a
> dry service.

I wonder what the Jellicoe Expresses were like!

On 15/12/2023 17:21, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
> Newcastle is just a city of slags. I don't know what it is about the culture
> in that corner of the country but they take essex and turn it up to 11.

Even the local police are bad according to an ex-police office I know
who still does work for them.

In message <uli0gg$1vr72$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:56:48 on Fri, 15 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulh9v3$1s5rk$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:32:03 on Fri, 15 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>>> the population.
>>
>> Sod the population, many of the passengers are tourists.
>>
>>> It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little
>>>single
>>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff
>>
>> Ha! Gateline in the Highlands, manned by giraffes.
>>
>>> and BTP the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the
>>> already staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments
>>> about what time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>
>There’s gate lines at the main stations in the central belt. It’s much
>easier to have blanket rules that cover Scotrail than get into arguments
>with drunks as to whether or not that particular route is covered. As to
>tourists. I’d imagine they might prefer a non threatening environment on
>tneir train.

All the threats we saw on the trains were from sober [English]
passengers.

For example the insanely self-entitled couple of 30yr old men in the
seats in front of us who rudely refused a polite request from an old
man to give up their seat, and then proceeded to harangue him for
standing in the crowded aisle next to them "because it makes us feel
uncomfortable".

When I gently commented that perhaps the best way to resolve the
situation was to let him sit, they started threatening me with violence.

Small beer(sic) compared to the seats we were in, marked "Priority Seat,
please offer to anyone in need" (or similar) where a fit youngster said
"As I'm in a good mood, I'll do you a favour and let you and your
wheelchair-bound companion sit here".

It's enough to drive one to drink (well, at least a small can of G&T)
--
Roland Perry

On 15/12/2023 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>> steaming drunk.
>>
>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home.
>> Now a
>> dry service.
>
> All the way to London?

I know one oil-rig worker who went all the way home to Cornwall! Mind
you he was a seismologist, not a roustabout. Split his time between
field shifts in the North Sea and office work in Houston. That was
before the internet, he'd be able to do his office work from Nancegollan
now.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 15/12/2023 10:11, Ken wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>
>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>
>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>
>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>
>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>
> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
> or otherwise.
>
> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.

In England everything is allowed unless specifically forbidden.

In Germany everything is forbidden unless specifically allowed.

In France everything is allowed even if specifically forbidden.

(Private Eye many years ago.)
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 15/12/2023 15:29, ColinR wrote:
> On 15/12/2023 11:57, JMB99 wrote:
>> On 15/12/2023 10:32, Tweed wrote:
>>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant
>>> part of
>>> the population. It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a
>>> single
>>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff and
>>> BTP
>>> the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the already
>>> staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments about
>>> what
>>> time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>>
>> Many of the Scots are proud of their addiction to alcohol, I remember
>> one colleague who had spent time on Orkney telling of one person there
>> opening a bottle of whisky, throwing away the bottle top with "we
>> won't be needing that again".
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> How life has changed! From the 1970s:
>
> QUOTE
> "The Medical Panel of the General Council of British Shipping have been
> looking into this matter, and we think it may be worthwhile to pass on
> their comments to you.
>
> They have concluded that a weekly consumption of more than thirty five
> pints of beer or two bottles of gin may pose a significant hazard to
> health in the longer term.
>
> You may be surprised by these modest quantities. None the less all
> seagoing staff are advised to consider these recommendations with regard
> to their alcohol consumption."
> UNQUOTE
>

The story continues that when this was presented to the government of
the day as a serious health recommendation they were told it was too
high and to halve it. Hence the "guidelines" we have today. Quoted by
Pete Brown in Man Went Into A Pub. Well worth reading.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 15/12/2023 17:11, Nobody wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:32:03 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>>
>>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>>
>>>> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>>>> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>>>> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>>>> or otherwise.
>>>>
>>>> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>>>> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>>>> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.
>>>
>>> An approach that works fine until there’s large scale or systematic abuse
>>> and enforcement becomes effectively impossible, which is why there’s a ban
>>> now. Defunding public services has consequences.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>> the population. It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff and BTP
>> the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the already
>> staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments about what
>> time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>
> The only time I've been nervous while on public transport was about 30
> years ago after coming down from Mallaig to Glasgow on a Saturday
> afternoon, and transferring to a mid-evening train to Edinburgh. The
> state of the majority of passengers was atrocious.
>
> More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
> Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
> staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.

And in an advanced state of undress even in the middle of winter!

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2023 17:11, Nobody wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:32:03 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
>> <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
>>>>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>>>>
>>>>> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>>>>> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>>>>> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>>>>> or otherwise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>>>>> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>>>>> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.
>>>>
>>>> An approach that works fine until there’s large scale or systematic abuse
>>>> and enforcement becomes effectively impossible, which is why there’s a ban
>>>> now. Defunding public services has consequences.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>>> the population. It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff and BTP
>>> the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the already
>>> staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments about what
>>> time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>>
>> The only time I've been nervous while on public transport was about 30
>> years ago after coming down from Mallaig to Glasgow on a Saturday
>> afternoon, and transferring to a mid-evening train to Edinburgh. The
>> state of the majority of passengers was atrocious.
>>
>> More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
>> Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
>> staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.
>
> And in an advanced state of undress even in the middle of winter!

I used to play in a ceilidh band, and driving home in the early hours along
Edinburgh’s Lothian Road, location of a number of nightclubs, was
eye-opening: queues of young people wearing very little in the November
drizzle at 2 am left me worried for their well being.

I’m aware of people who support club goers with water, hot drinks, flip
flops and other necessaries as an act of charity.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 09:11:32 -0800
> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>> More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
>> Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
>> staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.
>
> Newcastle is just a city of slags. I don't know what it is about the culture
> in that corner of the country but they take essex and turn it up to 11.

I was in Newcastle for the Rugby World Cup some years ago, and talking to
the stall holders they were much more worried about visiting football fans,
especially on the weekends when Chelsea came to town.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulh9v3$1s5rk$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:32:03 on Fri, 15 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>>> the population.
>>
>> Sod the population, many of the passengers are tourists.

Not sure I understand the target of this comment.

>>> It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks
>>> working their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a single
>>> train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff
>>
>> Ha! Gateline in the Highlands, manned by giraffes.
>>
>>> and BTP the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the
>>> already staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments
>>> about what time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>>
>
> There’s gate lines at the main stations in the central belt. It’s much
> easier to have blanket rules that cover Scotrail than get into arguments
> with drunks as to whether or not that particular route is covered. As to
> tourists. I’d imagine they might prefer a non threatening environment on
> tneir train.

Inverness has gatelines, as do Perth, Dundee and Aberdeen though those
latter, of course, are not technically in the Highlands.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2023 10:11, Ken wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 12:37:44 +0000, Charles Ellson
>> <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 14 Dec 2023 10:34:02 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 19:17:47 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 13/12/2023 18:42, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ulcrev$un92$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:59:59 on Wed, 13 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Railway Tavern in Darlington, built by the Stockton & Darlington
>>>>>>> Railway, has been Grade II listed.
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-67691236>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Better news would be if Scotrail relented on their "no alcohol anywhere
>>>>>> on our system" policy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Or, even better, NR ban alcohol on all service trains.
>>>>> It doesnt seem to have hit ridership on TfL.
>>>>
>>>> So you think it should be a commercial decision: ban adults from a
>>>> legal activity to boost ridership?
>>>>
>>> What law says it is legal to booze on a train?
>>
>> The same one that says it's legal to drink water on a train? In the UK
>> system everything is legal as a private citizen unless there's a law
>> that says otherwise. The law says that generally I may drink, alcohol
>> or otherwise.
>>
>> Scotrail has gone down the path of telling me that I can't do
>> something otherwise legal in case I abuse the situation. If I abuse it
>> then you can throw the book at me, but I really won't.
>
> In England everything is allowed unless specifically forbidden.
>
> In Germany everything is forbidden unless specifically allowed.
>
> In France everything is allowed even if specifically forbidden.
>
> (Private Eye many years ago.)

I remember Norman Tebbitt pointing out this major difference between the
legal systems of Great Britain and Europe many years ago, that everything
was forbidden there except where allowed. I remember thinking, “France?
Nah!”

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ulh8i5$1rpqa$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:08:06 on Fri, 15 Dec
> 2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>> I have long wished that drinking alcohol was only done in private and
>> there was an offence of 'being drunk in a public place' which was
>> enforced.
>>
>> Just treat it like any other addiction.
>
> I'd certainly support a national ban on smoking in all public places
> (not just indoors)

The trouble with drugs is that they’re not all the same. Tobacco is very
addictive for some people, but has very few immediate effects on behaviour,
general health or social interactions. Alcohol is quite difficult to get
physically addicted to but has major effects on behavious, health and
social interactions well before that stage. The other recreational drugs
are different again.

Sam

--
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Spit the dummy to reply

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>
> Well, I'd say that banning drinks on trains going to/from soccer matches
> would make a hell of a lot of difference in Germany. I know several
> people who stay away from trains on Saturdays (or verify there's no home
> game before doing their weekend planning). Having a few hundred drunk
> away-fans in a single train can be extremely unpleasant.
>

May 22 2004 ,
I’m making my way from the Netherlands to Bremerhaven via Bremen to do
some work on a ship in dry dock there. Pleasant journey most of the way
till we reached a station which may have been Dortmund but I could be
wrong on that.
The platform on which my train pulled in was occupied by hundreds of people
wearing predominately green who were enthusiastically taunting the Blue and
Red wearing people on another platform the tribes were being kept separate
by lots of Police many of which were accompanied by fierce looking dogs.
Not being a soccer follower I had hardly heard of the Bundesliga let alone
realise I was travelling on the day of the final towards a city of one of
the finalists and most were going to get on the train.
Fortunately it was Bremen the green team who had won so though loud they
were happy with many having supplies of Becks Bier with them which they
handed out and it seemed prudent to accept,
ironically I was indirectly working for the same group that owned Becks at
the time which made a good talking point. I reckon the journey would have
been far less cordial if the the other team which I soon learned was Bayern
Munich had won.

GH

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2023 06:38, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>
>>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home.
>>> Now a
>>> dry service.
>>
>> All the way to London?
>
> I know one oil-rig worker who went all the way home to Cornwall! Mind
> you he was a seismologist, not a roustabout. Split his time between
> field shifts in the North Sea and office work in Houston. That was
> before the internet, he'd be able to do his office work from Nancegollan
> now.
>

Mate of my Brother used to return from Aberdeen to North Devon overnight on
a large Motorcycle after a stint on the rigs.
Got knocked off near journeys end by someone emerging from a Cider
factory,
the bloke helped him up and invited him in while arranging for
transport for the bike and rider to home which was only about 10 miles
away. Meanwhile he offered the rider a pint of cider which still a bit
shocked he accepted. Only after a rest at home it dawned on him that the
old git had likely put him over the limit possibly deliberately in case he
called the Police in.

GH

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:38:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>
>>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home. Now a
>>> dry service.
>>
>> All the way to London?
>
> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>

Were the sockets not working?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On 15/12/2023 22:30, Sam Wilson wrote:
> I remember Norman Tebbitt pointing out this major difference between the
> legal systems of Great Britain and Europe many years ago, that everything
> was forbidden there except where allowed. I remember thinking, “France?
> Nah!”

I suppose in Italy that it does not matter if something is illegal
because no one pays any attention to the laws.

In message <ulik64$237hc$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:32:36 on Fri, 15 Dec
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ulh8i5$1rpqa$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:08:06 on Fri, 15 Dec
>> 2023, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> remarked:
>>> I have long wished that drinking alcohol was only done in private and
>>> there was an offence of 'being drunk in a public place' which was
>>> enforced.
>>>
>>> Just treat it like any other addiction.
>>
>> I'd certainly support a national ban on smoking in all public places
>> (not just indoors)
>
>The trouble with drugs is that they’re not all the same. Tobacco is very
>addictive for some people, but has very few immediate effects on behaviour,

Really? It seems to calm the addicts down considerably, once they can
find a place to have surreptitious fag. (Double entendre alert!)

>general health or social interactions. Alcohol is quite difficult to get
>physically addicted to but has major effects on behavious, health and
>social interactions well before that stage. The other recreational drugs
>are different again.
>
>Sam
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <ulijo2$235a6$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:06 on Fri, 15 Dec
2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ulh9v3$1s5rk$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:32:03 on Fri, 15 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>> Scotland has a problem with drug and alcohol abuse in a significant part of
>>>> the population.
>>>
>>> Sod the population, many of the passengers are tourists.
>
>Not sure I understand the target of this comment.
>
>>>> It’s not pleasant being on a train with a load of drunks working
>>>>their way through a table full of booze and there’s little a
>>>>single train guard can do. Banning alcohol at least gives gateline staff
>>>
>>> Ha! Gateline in the Highlands, manned by giraffes.
>>>
>>>> and BTP the opportunity to confiscate carry on supplies from the
>>>> already staggering. Making the ban 24/7 avoids the inevitable arguments
>>>> about what time the ban starts - never argue with a drunk.
>>
>> There’s gate lines at the main stations in the central belt. It’s much
>> easier to have blanket rules that cover Scotrail than get into arguments
>> with drunks as to whether or not that particular route is covered. As to
>> tourists. I’d imagine they might prefer a non threatening environment on
>> tneir train.
>
>Inverness has gatelines,

Not every platform, and not operating at all hours.

eg When we arrived in the summer on the one-per-day LNER from London
(and the soon-departing sleeper was on the other face of the platform),
not only were the barriers locked open, but there was a wide open
side-gate to the street.

And of course one can change trains airside, and the previous time we
were there, we boarded a train for Dingwall, where there are no barriers
at all. That again was late enough at night the barriers probably
weren't in action.

>as do Perth, Dundee and Aberdeen though those latter, of course, are
>not technically in the Highlands.
>
>Sam
>

--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 17:32:13 -0000 (UTC)
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
><Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 09:11:32 -0800
>> Nobody <jock@soccer.com> wrote:
>>> More recently in Newcastle back on the Sunday evening of the May Bank
>>> Holiday while looking for a decent restaurant, the number of
>>> staggering loud females in the City Centre was mind-boggling.
>>
>> Newcastle is just a city of slags. I don't know what it is about the culture
>> in that corner of the country but they take essex and turn it up to 11.
>>
>>
>
>Not at all. The folk there are really genuinely friendly.

Some of the friendliest people can become right bastards when drunk.

In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.

>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>
>Were the sockets not working?

By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
sockets at every bay.

When I was on a train this summer from Inverness to Kyle, there were no
sockets (despite the literature suggesting there might be). So I Tweeted
Scotrail to enquire. They said (knowing exactly which train I was on)
that every seat had a socket.

But I already knew that wasn't true, and subsequently doing a survey up
and down the carriages, the only socket was the one for cleaning staff
hotel power in the vestibule. (Which often have notices on them saying
that passengers shouldn't use).

On the good side, at least there were patches of mobile connectivity,
and they replied at all, even if it was a blatant lie.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> I'd believe they might not serve alcohol before 10am, which could be a
> 365-day thing in Scotland, but only Sundays in England.
>
> I wonder if Scottish airport departure lounges have that restriction
> too?

The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
license permitting it.

Trains are exempt from licensing - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/
2005/16 section 124 exempts "an aircraft, a hovercraft or a railway
vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any period ending with its
departure when preparations are being made for the journey, and any period
after its arrival at its destination when it continues to be occupied by
those (or any of those) who made the journey (or any part of it)."

As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated airports are
exempt from licensing, and then only airside - Aberdeen, Edinburgh,
Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and Sumburgh. Landside, and in other
airports, they need a license as normal.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act-2005-section-142-
guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/

Mike