On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 01:39:37 +0000, Charles Ellson
<charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:16:45 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>

>>
>>That's not required in the UK system.
>>
I'm well aware that there isn't a single system. But are you claiming
that my statement about everything being legal unless it isn't is
different between, e.g., England/Wales and Scotland?

>There has never been a UK legal system.
>
>>You, or a private company, can
>>do anything you like that hasn't been banned somehow.
>>
>Not in Scotland and possibly not now elsewhere in the UK. Judgments
>can change so that something not specifically prohibited in the past
>is deemed incompatible with modern society, e.g. rape in marriage. You
>can also get matters which had not been previously judged which become
>specifically illegal, e.g. slavery in Scotland.
>
Therefore it was only legal and now it isn't. Yes, I know that law
changes.
>>The exception is
>>Government at all levels which can only act within statutory powers.
>>
>Not all powers are statutory, some can derive from Common Law, be
>natural/inherent or be a non-statutory duty rather than a power.

Any examples of these?

>Powers of a local authority in Scotland don't inevitably need statute
>being more in keeping with the above principle that anything not
>otherwise proscribed is lawful -
>"A local authority has power to do anything which it considers is
>likely to promote or improve the well-being of—
>(a)its area and persons within that area; or
>(b)either of those."

In E&W there's' a section of the LGA that's similar but is tightly
limited in terms of the amount that may be spent and the fact that it
must benefit a large number of the residents.

>[s.20 Local Government in Scotland Act 2003]
>i.e. more a case of "Is there anything to stop us doing it." rather
>than "Have we got the power to do it?".
>
Very different from England in that case.

This differs from other legal systems.
>>

Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 08:21, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulkqno$2gq7g$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:36:41 on Sat, 16 Dec
>> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>>> On 16/12/2023 15:09, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <ulk1b4$2btbq$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:23:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>>> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:36:51 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> I'd believe they might not serve alcohol before 10am, which could be a
>>>>>> 365-day thing in Scotland, but only Sundays in England.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder if Scottish airport departure lounges have that restriction
>>>>>> too?
>>>>>
>>>>> The 10am to 10pm restriction is for off-sales. You can buy alcohol for
>>>>> consumption on the premises before 10am, if the establishment has a
>>>>> license permitting it.
>>
>>>>  I got the impression from such a potential licnece-holder that such
>>>> an  application was bound to fail.
>>>
>>> Licences permitting early drinking have certainly been issued in
>>> Edinburgh for pubs popular with shift workers, etc., but I don't know
>>> of any recent new ones.
>>
>> While I would not want a pint of Fosters with my breakfast, there's a
>> well known chain of pubs which does a tolerably good fry-up. Often the
>> only place open at 7am (including Sundays). Invariably open by 8am, or
>> 4am at airports.
>>
>> 10am seems relatively late to be opening the bar at such a place,
>> however. Half an hour into weekday off-peak for train travel for example.
>>
>>>>> Trains are exempt from licensing - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/
>>>>> 2005/16 section 124 exempts "an aircraft, a hovercraft
>>>>  Full of eels?
>>>
>>> A different set of rules applies if they're eely.
>>>
>>>>> or a railway vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any
>>>>> period  ending with its departure when preparations are being made
>>>>> for the  journey, and any period after its arrival at its
>>>>> destination when it  continues to be occupied by those (or any of
>>>>> those) who made the  journey (or any part of it)."
>>>>>
>>>>> As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated airports
>>>>> are  exempt from licensing, and then only airside - Aberdeen,
>>>>> Edinburgh,  Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and Sumburgh.
>>>>> Landside, and in  other  airports, they need a license as normal.
>>
>> Landside at Gatwick, the Wetherspoons opens at 4am.
>>
>>>>> https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act-2005-section-142-
>>>>> guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/
>
> Wetherspoons does a good business in breakfasts. Are they allowed to
> serve alcohol as that hour?

I don't think so. I think alcohol can only be served from 9am, at least in
England. Apparently the alcos order drinks a few minutes before 9am, and
they are poured or placed ready for delivery, but can only be billed and
handed over from 9am.

Of course, different rules may apply in an airside hostelry.

In message <ull716$2ijdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:30 on Sat, 16 Dec
2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:47:39 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ulijo2$235a6$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:25:06 on Fri, 15 Dec
>> 2023, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>Inverness has gatelines,
>>
>> Not every platform, and not operating at all hours.
>
>The only un-barriered platform is 7, which is debatably in Inverness
>station at all (it's at the far end of the car park). There are two
>separate barrier lines in the rest of the station, for platforms 1 and 2
>and for platforms 3-6.

Although platform 6 is presumably the other face of platform 7, so is
also accessible via the carpark.

>> eg When we arrived in the summer on the one-per-day LNER from London
>> (and the soon-departing sleeper was on the other face of the platform),
>> not only were the barriers locked open, but there was a wide open
>> side-gate to the street.
>
>The barriers are usually left open on 1-2 for the Sleeper and Highland
>Chieftain - and usually there's no other trains in 1-2 at that time.

The LNER from Kings Cross was, because I got off it!

See also:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C82176/2023-12-16
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C28941/2023-12-16

>Both trains arrive and depart fairly close in time in both the morning
>and evening, so it doesn't affect most of the day. And the gate to
>Falcon Square is landside of the barrier. There is a service gate
>further up the platform, but that's never supposed to be left open.

hmm. Anyway I went back around 5pm next afternoon (unencumbered with
luggage etc) and took some photos of the sleeper. And had unbarriered
access to 1/2.

This time a Scotrail DMU (possibly an ECS from Aberdeen) in platform 1.

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Caledonian-Sleeper.jpg
http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Caledonian-Sleeper-Traction.jpg

>> And of course one can change trains airside, and the previous time we
>> were there, we boarded a train for Dingwall, where there are no barriers
>> at all. That again was late enough at night the barriers probably
>> weren't in action.
>
>Most of the trains to the north go from inside the barriers. I don't know
>why they bother using 7,

Today: one train from Invergordon,then off to the depot. Maybe the other
reversing platforms are already occupied? Another from Tain, stays
overnight and at 5am reverses twice to get to Platform 3.

Tomorrow an Elgin to Kyle train reverses, closely followed by an
Aviemoor to Dundee service (marathon trip, eleven and a half hours).

>it's rather inconvenient and they're not short of
>platforms. I've never seen the barriers on 3-6 left open, they seem to
>operate whenever the station is open.
>
>Mike

--
Roland Perry

In message <ulmddq$2rrf7$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:01:46 on Sun, 17 Dec
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:

>> While I would not want a pint of Fosters with my breakfast, there's
>>a well known chain of pubs which does a tolerably good fry-up. Often
>>the only place open at 7am (including Sundays). Invariably open by
>>8am, or 4am at airports.

>> 10am seems relatively late to be opening the bar at such a place,
>>however. Half an hour into weekday off-peak for train travel for
>>example.
>>
>>>>> Trains are exempt from licensing -
>>>>>https://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/ 2005/16 section 124 exempts
>>>>>"an aircraft, a hovercraft

>>>>  Full of eels?
>>>
>>> A different set of rules applies if they're eely.
>>>
>>>>> or a railway vehicle while engaged on a journey" including "any
>>>>>period  ending with its departure when preparations are being made
>>>>>for the  journey, and any period after its arrival at its
>>>>>destination when it  continues to be occupied by those (or any of
>>>>>those) who made the  journey (or any part of it)."
>>>>>
>>>>> As for airports - it seems that in Scotland only designated
>>>>>airports are  exempt from licensing, and then only airside -
>>>>>Aberdeen, Edinburgh,  Glasgow, Glasgow Prestwick, Inverness and
>>>>>Sumburgh. Landside, and in  other  airports, they need a license as normal.
>> Landside at Gatwick, the Wetherspoons opens at 4am.
>>
>>>>>
https://www.gov.scot/publications/licensing-scotland-act->>>>>2005-sectio
n-142-guidance-licensing-boards/pages/15/
>
>Wetherspoons does a good business in breakfasts. Are they allowed to
>serve alcohol as that hour?

Not in Scotland !
--
Roland Perry

In message <ulmc4t$2rnm6$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:39:57 on Sun, 17 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> Not that they are as common as they used to be, I wonder what rules
>> apply to mini-bars in hotel rooms.
>
>https://www.john-gaunt.co.uk/news/hotel-mini-bars-to-license-or-not-to-license
>
>Recent trade press reports have indicated a trend away from mini bars in
>bedrooms at hotels. It is perhaps a timely reminder of the question of when
>and whether residential rooms/hotel bedrooms/letting rooms should be
>included within the licensed area for licensed premises.
>
>Certainly for most full service hotels we would generally advocate the
>inclusion of bedrooms within the licensed area to remove any question of
>provision of licensed activity by the sale of alcohol into rooms without a
>premises licence, but it is not always the case, or necessary.
>
>Where there are mini bars then the rooms should always be licensed by
>inclusion in the licence, but if there is no mini bar and no room service
>there will generally be no need to include such bedrooms.
>If there is room service then we would suggest inclusion to be on the safe
>side.
>
>The only down side to inclusion would seem to be that if alterations are to
>be undertaken to the residential rooms (and even if there are no
>alterations to any bar areas etc) then this may require an application to
>the licensing authority to vary the premises licence, which has cost
>implications.
>
>It is an area that to the best of our knowledge has never been fully
>tested!

I've got the Premier Inn room-service menu from my trip to London last
week, and there's no mention of opening hours (the restaurant was closed
for lunch and all afternoon, but the bar was still open). If refers to
"The drinks menu", which I don't have.

I stayed in a different much smaller Premier Inn a couple of months ago,
in Surrey, and their restaurant/bar was shuttered by about 9pm - despite
the website saying 11pm.
--
Roland Perry

On 17/12/2023 01:13, Charles Ellson wrote:
> That gets more complicated. Alcoholics will often not be "drunk"
> unlike someone who gets ratted once a week/month on much lower
> quantities of alcohol.

We had an alcoholic at work, they can be quite devious - when we went
out somewhere he would sometimes go in a pub for a bottle of lemonade
and they would partially fill it with whisky.

But when you drink all through the day, as he did, there are often no
obvious signs of drunkenness.

On 17/12/2023 01:52, Charles Ellson wrote:
> WRT drugs that is because the Home Office refuses to allow measures
> wanted by the Scottish Government which it could permit under the
> Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (whose subject matter is reserved to
> Westminster). That Act has arguably helped to expand the illicit drugs
> trade throughout the UK by turning a previous small problem into a big
> one by shifting addicts from doctors' surgeries into the hands of
> illegal suppliers whose business has flourished ever since. The HO
> prevents users in Scotland from being dealt with as a health problem
> more than a criminal problem.

But doesn't Scotland have a far worse problem with drug use than England?

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 17/12/2023 01:52, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> WRT drugs that is because the Home Office refuses to allow measures
>> wanted by the Scottish Government which it could permit under the
>> Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (whose subject matter is reserved to
>> Westminster). That Act has arguably helped to expand the illicit drugs
>> trade throughout the UK by turning a previous small problem into a big
>> one by shifting addicts from doctors' surgeries into the hands of
>> illegal suppliers whose business has flourished ever since. The HO
>> prevents users in Scotland from being dealt with as a health problem
>> more than a criminal problem.
>
>
>
> But doesn't Scotland have a far worse problem with drug use than England?

Yes, Scottish drug deaths per million population are by far the worst in
Europe, and about 3.5x higher than the rest of GB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug-related_deaths_in_the_United_Kingdom

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:57:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ull716$2ijdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:30 on Sat, 16 Dec
> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>The only un-barriered platform is 7, which is debatably in Inverness
>>station at all (it's at the far end of the car park). There are two
>>separate barrier lines in the rest of the station, for platforms 1 and 2
>>and for platforms 3-6.
>
> Although platform 6 is presumably the other face of platform 7, so is
> also accessible via the carpark.

No, the layout is a bit weird. The platform 6 track has a platform on both
sides. One side is platform 6, and is inside the barriers. The other side
is un-numbered (though oddly has tactile paving, "mind the gap" markings
etc) and isn't used. As the trains all have central locking, and the doors
on the "platform 6.5" side aren't unlocked, it's not possible to board
from this side.

Mike

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 02:44:16 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 06:38:20 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ulf776$1eeuk$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:32:54 on Thu, 14 Dec
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> I've never bought the argument that banning drinks on trains make much
>>>>>> difference. It's not a case of people getting on sober then becoming
>>>>>> steaming drunk.
>>>>>
>>>>> Friday morning LNER train from Aberdeen. Oil rig workers going home. Now a
>>>>> dry service.
>>>>
>>>> All the way to London?
>>>
>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>>
>>
>> Were the sockets not working?
>>
> There seemed to be very few of them and no empty seats. He sat in
> first to charge his phone and was allowed to stay for a while for that
> purpose. Once turfed out he sat on the floor next to the trolley.
>

There would have been a pair of sockets above every table, and a single
socket underneath the pair of seats in front, for the unidirectional
seating. That arrangement was installed at the previous GW refurbishment
and didn't alter with the addition of the sliding doors.

Google seems reluctant to show images of the under-seat socket; you can
*just* make out the edge of it on this picture:
<https://images.app.goo.gl/EYVjgBjSwwdkQBHc6>

They are unfortunately vulnerable to being kicked and/or deliberately bent
so they face downward.

All the sockets are associated with seats [1] so lack of a seat would
indeed create a charging problem.

[1] except the one under the luggage rack, where the voltage and frequency
varies with engine speed.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:45:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>>
>>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>>
>>> Were the sockets not working?
>>
>> By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
>> sockets at every bay.
>>
> The last time I was in First Class on an HST from Reading to
> Paddington pre-COVID the upper sockets were too close to the table to
> allow a "wall wart" power supply to be plugged in and the lower
> sockets (between the seats?) left the cable a bit tight to the phone
> on the table.
> <snip>
>

They were subsequently turned upside down.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 09:34:34 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 01:39:37 +0000, Charles Ellson
><charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 15 Dec 2023 10:16:45 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>>That's not required in the UK system.
>>>
>I'm well aware that there isn't a single system. But are you claiming
>that my statement about everything being legal unless it isn't is
>different between, e.g., England/Wales and Scotland?
>
>
>>There has never been a UK legal system.
>>
>>>You, or a private company, can
>>>do anything you like that hasn't been banned somehow.
>>>
>>Not in Scotland and possibly not now elsewhere in the UK. Judgments
>>can change so that something not specifically prohibited in the past
>>is deemed incompatible with modern society, e.g. rape in marriage. You
>>can also get matters which had not been previously judged which become
>>specifically illegal, e.g. slavery in Scotland.
>>
>Therefore it was only legal and now it isn't. Yes, I know that law
>changes.
>
It wasn't legal, it was unjudged. Had something been legal at the time
of the offending event then it would not be possible to prosecute or
interdict the offender as that would be retrospective imposition of
the law. The more common modern example is when a tax avoidance scheme
is judged to be illegal tax evasion even if it has been running for
some time.

>>>The exception is
>>>Government at all levels which can only act within statutory powers.
>>>
>>Not all powers are statutory, some can derive from Common Law, be
>>natural/inherent or be a non-statutory duty rather than a power.
>
>Any examples of these?
>
Putting the council's name on the front of their building, an activity
natural to an owner/occupier unless there is something saying they
cannot do it.

>>Powers of a local authority in Scotland don't inevitably need statute
>>being more in keeping with the above principle that anything not
>>otherwise proscribed is lawful -
>>"A local authority has power to do anything which it considers is
>>likely to promote or improve the well-being of—
>>(a)its area and persons within that area; or
>>(b)either of those."
>
>In E&W there's' a section of the LGA that's similar but is tightly
>limited in terms of the amount that may be spent and the fact that it
>must benefit a large number of the residents.
>
>>[s.20 Local Government in Scotland Act 2003]
>>i.e. more a case of "Is there anything to stop us doing it." rather
>>than "Have we got the power to do it?".
>>
>Very different from England in that case.
>
Hence e.g. Bromley v. "Fares Fair" where the Bromley tail was allowed
to wag the GLC dog. That doesn't mean that decisions are beyond
challenge.
>
>This differs from other legal systems.
>>>

On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 11:48:34 GMT, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com>
wrote:

>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 17/12/2023 01:52, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> WRT drugs that is because the Home Office refuses to allow measures
>>> wanted by the Scottish Government which it could permit under the
>>> Misuse of Drugs Act 1971 (whose subject matter is reserved to
>>> Westminster). That Act has arguably helped to expand the illicit drugs
>>> trade throughout the UK by turning a previous small problem into a big
>>> one by shifting addicts from doctors' surgeries into the hands of
>>> illegal suppliers whose business has flourished ever since. The HO
>>> prevents users in Scotland from being dealt with as a health problem
>>> more than a criminal problem.
>>
>> But doesn't Scotland have a far worse problem with drug use than England?
>
Yes but Westminster dictates what can or cannot be done to deal with
it. As I said above, much of the problem throughout the UK traces back
to their 1971 legislation and the Home Office refusing to allow users
to be dealt with as more of a medical problem as is done with alcohol
and tobacco.

>Yes, Scottish drug deaths per million population are by far
>
Not "by far". Different countries have different ways of assessing so
the placing can be a bit fuzzy. In Scotland the figures for drug
deaths do not inevitably involve illegal drugs, the majority of deaths
being accidental overdoses with 7% of the whole classed as intentional
self-poisonings thus including suicide using "legal" prescribed/OTC
medicine. The Scotland v. England ratio reported in the media also
varies significantly due to cherry-picking from different parts of the
statistics (with SCT still significantly higher. The death rate in the
NE region of England is not far different but publicising that figure
doesn't suit those who can't blame the Scottish Government rather than
looking further into the problem to identify underlying causes.

>the worst in
>Europe, and about 3.5x higher than the rest of GB.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug-related_deaths_in_the_United_Kingdom
>
National Records of Scotland say 2.7 times (on a 5y fall) for 2022
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/news/2023/drug-related-deaths-decrease
as repeated/accrpted by most of the media but with exceptions :-

Sky says "still more than three times higher than the next worst
affected European country." thus ignoring the rest of the UK.
https://news.sky.com/story/scotland-drug-deaths-decrease-but-rate-still-higher-than-rest-of-europe-12941228

The BBC also ignores the rest of the UK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-66572155
going similarly for :-
"worst drug death rate in the UK and the rest of Europe."
"still more than three times as common as they were two decades ago."

In message <huetnih7ugcpnbj4tiocdre3lv1tggpj3i@4ax.com>, at 09:16:40 on
Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:

>>You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>>posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>>drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?
>
>It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
>heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
>on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
>every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.
>
>I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
>my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.

I thought I'd test the system, having got used to it, so got on a train
with two cans of alcohol-free beer (having been age-checked at Tesco
<sigh>) I needed to go to Tesco anyway, to buy a picnic lunch because we
correctly predicted the advertised trolley service on the train would be
a no-show.

However, the conductor had their hands full with other matters (although
did make a few tannoy announcements about the alcohol ban).

The train was full and standing (and sitting-in-the-aisles) and tempers
were fraying, despite everyone presumably being sober. It was hot and
noisy (not least the jointed rail noise coming in through the hopper
windows, and the under-floor diesel engines screaming in anguish).

I could see the vestibule, and had to remonstrate with someone joining
the train at an intermediate station who evicted my suitcase from the
overcrowded storage area in favour of theirs. Leaving mine drunkenly
wheeling itself around the remaining corridor area.

Of course we had First Class tickets, but Scotrail can't be bothered to
provide even a token amount of accommodation.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <huetnih7ugcpnbj4tiocdre3lv1tggpj3i@4ax.com>, at 09:16:40 on
> Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>
>>> You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>>> posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>>> drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?
>>
>> It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
>> heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
>> on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
>> every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.
>>
>> I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
>> my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.
>
> I thought I'd test the system, having got used to it, so got on a train
> with two cans of alcohol-free beer (having been age-checked at Tesco
> <sigh>) I needed to go to Tesco anyway, to buy a picnic lunch because we
> correctly predicted the advertised trolley service on the train would be
> a no-show.
>
> However, the conductor had their hands full with other matters (although
> did make a few tannoy announcements about the alcohol ban).
>
> The train was full and standing (and sitting-in-the-aisles) and tempers
> were fraying, despite everyone presumably being sober. It was hot and
> noisy (not least the jointed rail noise coming in through the hopper
> windows, and the under-floor diesel engines screaming in anguish).
>
> I could see the vestibule, and had to remonstrate with someone joining
> the train at an intermediate station who evicted my suitcase from the
> overcrowded storage area in favour of theirs. Leaving mine drunkenly
> wheeling itself around the remaining corridor area.
>
> Of course we had First Class tickets, but Scotrail can't be bothered to
> provide even a token amount of accommodation.

Nothing to do with can’t be bothered, it’s a deliberate policy decision not
to have first class on some routes.

On 18/12/2023 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <huetnih7ugcpnbj4tiocdre3lv1tggpj3i@4ax.com>, at 09:16:40 on
> Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>
>>> You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>>> posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>>> drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?
>>
>> It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
>> heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
>> on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
>> every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.
>>
>> I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
>> my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.
>
> I thought I'd test the system, having got used to it, so got on a train
> with two cans of alcohol-free beer (having been age-checked at Tesco
> <sigh>) I needed to go to Tesco anyway, to buy a picnic lunch because we
> correctly predicted the advertised trolley service on the train would be
> a no-show.

If the service was so full and standing how do you expect the trolley to
reach you?

> However, the conductor had their hands full with other matters (although
> did make a few tannoy announcements about the alcohol ban).
>
> The train was full and standing (and sitting-in-the-aisles) and tempers
> were fraying, despite everyone presumably being sober. It was hot and
> noisy (not least the jointed rail noise coming in through the hopper
> windows, and the under-floor diesel engines screaming in anguish).
>
> I could see the vestibule, and had to remonstrate with someone joining
> the train at an intermediate station who evicted my suitcase from the
> overcrowded storage area in favour of theirs. Leaving mine drunkenly
> wheeling itself around the remaining corridor area.
>
> Of course we had First Class tickets, but Scotrail can't be bothered to
> provide even a token amount of accommodation.

In message <ollsnilt4f8ramqaun250dpti7k93nqr21@4ax.com>, at 02:12:20 on
Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:45:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>>
>>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>>
>>>Were the sockets not working?
>>
>>By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
>>sockets at every bay.
>>
>The last time I was in First Class on an HST from Reading to
>Paddington pre-COVID the upper sockets were too close to the table to
>allow a "wall wart" power supply to be plugged in and the lower
>sockets (between the seats?) left the cable a bit tight to the phone
>on the table.
><snip>

Put a longer cable in your road warrior kit and/or get a phone charger
wallwart that sticks out perpendicular to the socket. Another top-tip is
to have one of these:

<https://www.amazon.co.uk/Guilty-Gadgets-Computer-Freeview-
Chargers/dp/B00D1FCLMQ>
--
Roland Perry

In message <uln2mg$2vqc1$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:04:48 on Sun, 17 Dec
2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>On Sun, 17 Dec 2023 10:57:12 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ull716$2ijdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:06:30 on Sat, 16 Dec
>> 2023, Mike Humphrey <mail@michaelhumphrey.me.uk> remarked:
>>>The only un-barriered platform is 7, which is debatably in Inverness
>>>station at all (it's at the far end of the car park). There are two
>>>separate barrier lines in the rest of the station, for platforms 1 and 2
>>>and for platforms 3-6.
>>
>> Although platform 6 is presumably the other face of platform 7, so is
>> also accessible via the carpark.
>
>No, the layout is a bit weird. The platform 6 track has a platform on both
>sides. One side is platform 6, and is inside the barriers. The other side
>is un-numbered (though oddly has tactile paving, "mind the gap" markings
>etc) and isn't used. As the trains all have central locking, and the doors
>on the "platform 6.5" side aren't unlocked, it's not possible to board
>from this side.

Fair enough. But if I had a wheelchair pax who had arrived on 7 and
needed to board a train on 6, I might bang on the window to get them to
over-ride the central locking.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ulp4lt$3emlg$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:53 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <huetnih7ugcpnbj4tiocdre3lv1tggpj3i@4ax.com>, at 09:16:40 on
>> Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>>>> posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>>>> drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?
>>>
>>> It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
>>> heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
>>> on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
>>> every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.
>>>
>>> I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
>>> my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.
>>
>> I thought I'd test the system, having got used to it, so got on a train
>> with two cans of alcohol-free beer (having been age-checked at Tesco
>> <sigh>) I needed to go to Tesco anyway, to buy a picnic lunch because we
>> correctly predicted the advertised trolley service on the train would be
>> a no-show.
>>
>> However, the conductor had their hands full with other matters (although
>> did make a few tannoy announcements about the alcohol ban).
>>
>> The train was full and standing (and sitting-in-the-aisles) and tempers
>> were fraying, despite everyone presumably being sober. It was hot and
>> noisy (not least the jointed rail noise coming in through the hopper
>> windows, and the under-floor diesel engines screaming in anguish).
>>
>> I could see the vestibule, and had to remonstrate with someone joining
>> the train at an intermediate station who evicted my suitcase from the
>> overcrowded storage area in favour of theirs. Leaving mine drunkenly
>> wheeling itself around the remaining corridor area.
>>
>> Of course we had First Class tickets, but Scotrail can't be bothered to
>> provide even a token amount of accommodation.
>
>Nothing to do with can’t be bothered, it’s a deliberate policy decision not
>to have first class on some routes.

Because they can't be bothered!!! All it requires is marking perhaps as
few as eight seats (four per table, both sides) as FC.

They don't need to do anything more, because there was never a risk
they'd have to provide at-seat catering.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ulp5bl$3epe4$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:02:29 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>On 18/12/2023 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <huetnih7ugcpnbj4tiocdre3lv1tggpj3i@4ax.com>, at 09:16:40
>>on Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> You have never encountered the groups mentioned/inferred by other
>>>> posters who get on with a table full of cans and get increasingly
>>>> drunk and noisy as the journey goes on?
>>>
>>> It's happened, the worst example being a group of female squaddies
>>> heading for Manchester Airport. But they were steaming when they got
>>> on. I've also been on Ascot services during Royal Ascot week where
>>> every female passenger has a paper cup full of vodka.
>>>
>>> I still don't see why those groups should stop me having a beer with
>>> my sandwich on a Glasgow - Aberdeen service.

>> I thought I'd test the system, having got used to it, so got on a
>>train with two cans of alcohol-free beer (having been age-checked at
>>Tesco <sigh>) I needed to go to Tesco anyway, to buy a picnic lunch
>>because we correctly predicted the advertised trolley service on the
>>train would be a no-show.
>
>If the service was so full and standing how do you expect the trolley
>to reach you?

Not my circus, not my monkey.

They could either predict that situation and withdraw the advertisement,
or as happens sometimes, commandeer one or other vestibule and offer
static service from there, even if pax have to walk halfway down the
train. They already need to walk halfway down the train to find a
working toilet, and if it was a classic buffet obviously also have to
walk halfway down the train.

>> However, the conductor had their hands full with other matters
>>(although did make a few tannoy announcements about the alcohol ban).
>> The train was full and standing (and sitting-in-the-aisles) and
>>tempers were fraying, despite everyone presumably being sober. It was
>>hot and noisy (not least the jointed rail noise coming in through the
>>hopper windows, and the under-floor diesel engines screaming in anguish).

>> I could see the vestibule, and had to remonstrate with someone
>>joining the train at an intermediate station who evicted my suitcase
>>from the overcrowded storage area in favour of theirs. Leaving mine
>>drunkenly wheeling itself around the remaining corridor area.

>> Of course we had First Class tickets, but Scotrail can't be bothered
>>to provide even a token amount of accommodation.

--
Roland Perry

In message <2dftnidpd0ev5q4o40d8do83v312vjdv84@4ax.com>, at 09:22:31 on
Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:45:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>
>>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>>
>>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>>
>>>Were the sockets not working?
>>
>>By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
>>sockets at every bay.
>>
>No, his ticket was standard. The £250 was to somewhere like
>Sunderland. And he could probably not be considered a reliable
>narrator.

Currently you can't get returns on that flow (ticket simplification!!!)
but the SOS is only £87, so I seriously doubt the SOR was ever more than
£150 at the date of your anecdote.

>>When I was on a train this summer from Inverness to Kyle, there were no
>>sockets (despite the literature suggesting there might be). So I Tweeted
>>Scotrail to enquire. They said (knowing exactly which train I was on)
>>that every seat had a socket.
>>
>>But I already knew that wasn't true, and subsequently doing a survey up
>>and down the carriages, the only socket was the one for cleaning staff
>>hotel power in the vestibule. (Which often have notices on them saying
>>that passengers shouldn't use).
>>
>>On the good side, at least there were patches of mobile connectivity,
>>and they replied at all, even if it was a blatant lie.

--
Roland Perry

On 18/12/2023 10:01, Roland Perry wrote:
> Put a longer cable in your road warrior kit and/or get a phone charger
> wallwart that sticks out perpendicular to the socket. Another top-tip is
> to have one of these:

I always keep a USB extension lead on my phone (and other devices)
charger leads.

On 18/12/2023 10:01, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ollsnilt4f8ramqaun250dpti7k93nqr21@4ax.com>, at 02:12:20 on
> Sun, 17 Dec 2023, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
> remarked:
>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2023 10:45:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ulj2u0$255p6$4@dont-email.me>, at 02:44:16 on Sat, 16 Dec
>>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> I shared a journey from Aberdeen to Edinburgh in the company of one
>>>>> such man. He was well tanked up and particularly offended by the fact
>>>>> he'd paid £250 f*ing quid for his ticket and had nowhere to charge his
>>>>> phone. I found him quite entertaining.
>>>
>>>>> The train was an un refurbished ex-GWR HST.
>>>>
>>>> Were the sockets not working?
>>>
>>> By implication this was First Class, and I can't remember if they have
>>> sockets at every bay.
>>>
>> The last time I was in First Class on an HST from Reading to
>> Paddington pre-COVID the upper sockets were too close to the table to
>> allow a "wall wart" power supply to be plugged in and the lower
>> sockets (between the seats?) left the cable a bit tight to the phone
>> on the table.
>> <snip>
>
> Put a longer cable in your road warrior kit and/or get a phone charger
> wallwart that sticks out perpendicular to the socket. Another top-tip is
> to have one of these:
>
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/Guilty-Gadgets-Computer-Freeview-
> Chargers/dp/B00D1FCLMQ>

I have an older USB charger where the socket is at the top, rather than
the bottom. Amazingly useful in all sort of situations. No idea where I
got it from.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> On 18/12/2023 10:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>> Put a longer cable in your road warrior kit and/or get a phone charger
>> wallwart that sticks out perpendicular to the socket. Another top-tip is
>> to have one of these:
>
>
> I always keep a USB extension lead on my phone (and other devices)
> charger leads.
>
Or simply carry a battery pack. Then you aren’t dependent on the socket
being available or working. Mine is the same size as my iPhone SE and will
charge the phone three times over. Comes with integrated lightning, micro
usb and usb-c leads, some usb-a and usb-c sockets and an integrated usb-a
lead to plug it into a charger.

In message <ulpa0i$3fk3o$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:21:54 on Mon, 18 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>> On 18/12/2023 10:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> Put a longer cable in your road warrior kit and/or get a phone charger
>>> wallwart that sticks out perpendicular to the socket. Another top-tip is
>>> to have one of these:
>>
>> I always keep a USB extension lead on my phone (and other devices)
>> charger leads.
>>
>Or simply carry a battery pack.

I do that too.

>Then you aren’t dependent on the socket
>being available or working. Mine is the same size as my iPhone SE and will
>charge the phone three times over.

Mine is about the size of three iPhones stacked together.

>Comes with integrated lightning, micro usb and usb-c leads, some usb-a
>and usb-c sockets and an integrated usb-a lead to plug it into a
>charger.

That's a separate issue, but I do have something a bit like a
Swiss-Army-Knife with all the different connectors included.
--
Roland Perry