On 2023-12-01 19:42:42 +0000, Larry Wolff said:
> On 11/28/2023 6:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>
>>> I bought my first digital camera in 1999. People had them years
>>> previously. How did they transfer files if not by a separate card
>>> reader? Computers did not commonly have card slots and cameras did not
>>> have wifi/USB capability. At least mine didn't.
>>
>> As below, you plug the camera into the computer using a data cable.
>
> What if you're going to a wedding, and you plan ahead and bring sd cards.
>
> Person 1 has an SLR and fills up the storage with photos. He "fiddles" with
> an sd card, & takes more. Then he "fiddles" with another sd card for more.
>
> Person 2 has a normal Android phone, so he does the exact same things.
>
> But what does person 3 do who, sadly, only has access to his iPhone camera?

Any normal person who takes so many photos that they quickly fill up a
mobile phone probably needs to seek professional psychiatric help. :-p

A. The original question was about old cameras.

B. Most phones these days can transfer files wirelessly, either locally
or to the internet.

C. That is again a niche case - few manufacturers bother with
niche markets. As before, very few people both fiddling about
swapping SD cards, so Apple doesn't bother with the card slot.
Samsung and the other main manufacturers will follow the same
course - Samsung's newest Galaxy S23 does not have an SD card
slot either.

On 12/1/2023 11:23 AM, rocco portelli wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>> BTW, I think in 1890 [1] there was no TRRS, nor TRS and no 3.5mm
>>> version, so you might want to update that date! :-)
>>>
>>> [1] If that was the year you keep on mentioning.
>>
>> I got it wrong indeed. Should be 1877.
>>
>> The original TR "patch cable" in this style emerged sometime in the
>> 1870's. The 3.5 TRS/TRRS designs we see today descend therefrom. (as
>> far back as 1977, actually - so I'll update my comments going forward).
>
> To respond to the claim that anything that works must be replaced by Apple
> with something that costs more just to get back to what already worked,
> they invented the simple usable round wheel many thousands of years ago.
>
> Following the argument by Alan, since it works, Apple must get rid of it.
The 3.5mm TRS jacks go back a lot further than that. They are the same
as the 1/8" stereo jacks. TRRS is newer.

On 2023-12-01 22:40, Your Name wrote:
> On 2023-12-01 19:42:42 +0000, Larry Wolff said:
>> On 11/28/2023 6:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I bought my first digital camera in 1999.  People had them years
>>>> previously.  How did they transfer files if not by a separate card
>>>> reader?  Computers did not commonly have card slots and cameras did not
>>>> have wifi/USB capability. At least mine didn't.
>>>
>>> As below, you plug the camera into the computer using a data cable.
>>
>> What if you're going to a wedding, and you plan ahead and bring sd cards.
>>
>> Person 1 has an SLR and fills up the storage with photos. He "fiddles"
>> with
>> an sd card, & takes more. Then he "fiddles" with another sd card for
>> more.
>>
>> Person 2 has a normal Android phone, so he does the exact same things.
>>
>> But what does person 3 do who, sadly, only has access to his iPhone
>> camera?
>
> Any normal person who takes so many photos that they quickly fill up a
> mobile phone probably needs to seek professional psychiatric help.  :-p

Not really.

I can take five thousand photos in high resolution on a single night,
out in the bunnies.

Try to upload that to the cloud while "out in the bunnies".

--
Cheers,
Carlos E.R.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> What Apple did was design a car without a trunk so that you would buy
>> something else (a drag-along trailer perhaps) to compensate for that loss.
>
> No. That is all simply false.
>
> What Apple did was design a piece of consumer electronics and let people
> decided whether or not they wanted to buy it.

Apple told you it was "courageous" not to have what the other cars have.

Apple couldn't say it was better to not have a trunk (as it's not better).

Apple only said you are "courageous" for buying a car without a trunk.

On 2023-12-01 22:35:56 +0000, Carlos E. R. said:
> On 2023-12-01 22:40, Your Name wrote:
>> On 2023-12-01 19:42:42 +0000, Larry Wolff said:
>>> On 11/28/2023 6:15 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I bought my first digital camera in 1999.  People had them years
>>>>> previously.  How did they transfer files if not by a separate card
>>>>> reader?  Computers did not commonly have card slots and cameras did not
>>>>> have wifi/USB capability. At least mine didn't.
>>>>
>>>> As below, you plug the camera into the computer using a data cable.
>>>
>>> What if you're going to a wedding, and you plan ahead and bring sd cards.
>>>
>>> Person 1 has an SLR and fills up the storage with photos. He "fiddles" with
>>> an sd card, & takes more. Then he "fiddles" with another sd card for more.
>>>
>>> Person 2 has a normal Android phone, so he does the exact same things.
>>>
>>> But what does person 3 do who, sadly, only has access to his iPhone camera?
>>
>> Any normal person who takes so many photos that they quickly fill up a
>> mobile phone probably needs to seek professional psychiatric help.  :-p
>
> Not really.
>
> I can take five thousand photos in high resolution on a single night,
> out in the bunnies.
>
> Try to upload that to the cloud while "out in the bunnies".

As before: very niche market.

On 12/1/2023 3:40 PM, Your Name wrote:

> B. Most phones these days can transfer files wirelessly, either locally
> or to the internet.

If that's how an iPhone has to store photos, no wonder you whine so much.

On 12/1/2023 10:01 PM, Your Name wrote:

>> Try to upload that to the cloud while "out in the bunnies".
>
> As before: very niche market.

I'm wondering if the reason you whine so much about the iPhone is because
no iPhone can do what other phones can do so you're embarrassed about that.

You complain that "nobody wants" to save photos.
You whine that "nobody needs" to save photos.

It's like you are embarrassed that you're spending hours looking for an
Internet connection on every vacation just because you bought an iPhone.

It's your fault you bought that iPhone. Own up to your own mistakes.

On 12/1/2023 2:45 PM, Alan wrote:

>> But what does person 3 do who, sadly, only has access to his iPhone camera?
>
> The iPhone loads the photos up onto iCloud.

No wonder you are whining so much about having bought that iPhone then.

On every vacation, you're spending all your time looking all over for an
Internet connection and then waiting all day for the uploads to finish.

Meanwhile, people with normal phones are out and about taking photos.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

>>> The original TR "patch cable" in this style emerged sometime in the
>>> 1870's. The 3.5 TRS/TRRS designs we see today descend therefrom. (as
>>> far back as 1977, actually - so I'll update my comments going forward).
>>
>> To respond to the claim that anything that works must be replaced by Apple
>> with something that costs more just to get back to what already worked,
>> they invented the simple usable round wheel many thousands of years ago.
>>
>> Following the argument by Alan, since it works, Apple must get rid of it.
> The 3.5mm TRS jacks go back a lot further than that. They are the same
> as the 1/8" stereo jacks. TRRS is newer.

The date something was invented isn't important.
What's important is that it works.

For some reason, they keep telling us that the only reason it was removed
by Apple is that it had been working just fine for a very long time.

On 2023-12-02 03:19:16 +0000, Larry Wolff said:
> On 12/1/2023 10:01 PM, Your Name wrote:
>>
>>> Try to upload that to the cloud while "out in the bunnies".
>>
>> As before: very niche market.
>
> I'm wondering if the reason you whine so much about the iPhone is because
> no iPhone can do what other phones can do so you're embarrassed about that.
>
> You complain that "nobody wants" to save photos.
> You whine that "nobody needs" to save photos.
<snip the usual load of trolling bollocks>

I never said any such thing ... yet another moron who can't read to add
to the killfile. :-\

On 2023-12-02 03:28:53 +0000, rocco portelli said:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The original TR "patch cable" in this style emerged sometime in the
>>>> 1870's. The 3.5 TRS/TRRS designs we see today descend therefrom. (as
>>>> far back as 1977, actually - so I'll update my comments going forward).
>>>
>>> To respond to the claim that anything that works must be replaced by Apple
>>> with something that costs more just to get back to what already worked,
>>> they invented the simple usable round wheel many thousands of years ago.
>>>
>>> Following the argument by Alan, since it works, Apple must get rid of it.
>>
>> The 3.5mm TRS jacks go back a lot further than that. They are the same
>> as the 1/8" stereo jacks. TRRS is newer.
>
> The date something was invented isn't important.
> What's important is that it works.
>
> For some reason, they keep telling us that the only reason it was removed
> by Apple is that it had been working just fine for a very long time.

Apple, Samsung, etc. are removing the headphone jack simply because
very few people use it. Most people can't be bothered with tangled
cables, so wireless earbuds have become far more popular. In fact the
majority of people probably don't use earbuds at all - their phone is
used mainly as little more than a high-tech messaging device.

Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:

>> For some reason, they keep telling us that the only reason it was removed
>> by Apple is that it had been working just fine for a very long time.
>
> Apple, Samsung, etc. are removing the headphone jack simply because
> very few people use it. Most people can't be bothered with tangled
> cables, so wireless earbuds have become far more popular. In fact the
> majority of people probably don't use earbuds at all - their phone is
> used mainly as little more than a high-tech messaging device.

Your excuse for your iPhone not being a capable phone is ridiculous because
anyone on any phone can add bluetooth earbuds - whether Apple or Samsung.

On 2023-11-30 22:14, rocco portelli wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>> The original TR "patch cable" in this style emerged sometime in the
>>> 1870's.  The 3.5 TRS/TRRS designs we see today descend therefrom. (as
>>> far back as 1977, actually - so I'll update my comments going forward).
>>
>> oops- "as far back as 1877" - sorry.
>
> Your argument is flawed that just because something has been useful for
> many years, that it's no longer useful only because Apple told you so.

A lot of things are useful. Typewriters, for example.

How many people use them now?

Of course if it was a bad idea to get rid of headphone jacks, then
Samsung would keep them in all of its high end smartphones.

They don't.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-01 14:37, Alan wrote:
> On 2023-12-01 10:33, rocco portelli wrote:
>>   Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> The original TR "patch cable" in this style emerged sometime in the
>>>>>> 1870's.  The 3.5 TRS/TRRS designs we see today descend therefrom. (as
>>>>>> far back as 1977, actually - so I'll update my comments going
>>>>>> forward).
>>>>>
>>>>> oops- "as far back as 1877" - sorry.
>>>>
>>>> Your argument is flawed that just because something has been useful for
>>>> many years, that it's no longer useful only because Apple told you so.
>>>
>>> That's not his argument.
>>
>> He's repeating it works for far too long for Apple to sell you more
>> stuff.
>
> That's not even a parseable sentence.

Thanks - I jammed on it and decided that ignoring it was a better thing.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-01 22:28, rocco portelli wrote:
> sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> The original TR "patch cable" in this style emerged sometime in the
>>>> 1870's. The 3.5 TRS/TRRS designs we see today descend therefrom. (as
>>>> far back as 1977, actually - so I'll update my comments going forward).
>>>
>>> To respond to the claim that anything that works must be replaced by Apple
>>> with something that costs more just to get back to what already worked,
>>> they invented the simple usable round wheel many thousands of years ago.
>>>
>>> Following the argument by Alan, since it works, Apple must get rid of it.
>> The 3.5mm TRS jacks go back a lot further than that. They are the same
>> as the 1/8" stereo jacks. TRRS is newer.
>
> The date something was invented isn't important.
> What's important is that it works.

Beyond wheels I don't know of anything all that enduring that hasn't
been replaced by something better. Although wheels themselves
continuously evolve - haven't seen wood, tallow lubricated wheel hubs in
a while ...

> For some reason, they keep telling us that the only reason it was removed
> by Apple is that it had been working just fine for a very long time.

That is a silly statement.

And of course as soon as Apple broke the mold, Samsung followed. Par.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-02 01:19, Your Name wrote:

> Apple, Samsung, etc. are removing the headphone jack simply because very
> few people use it. Most people can't be bothered with tangled cables, so
> wireless earbuds have become far more popular. In fact the majority of
> people probably don't use earbuds at all - their phone is used mainly as
> little more than a high-tech messaging device.

- messaging (incl. e-mail on occasion)
- navigation (maps, compass, satellite nav)
- Notes
- Reminders
- photography/video (the camera you have ...)
- web browser when one needs to find something when out and about
- translator
- weather info
- music player
- video player
- data recorder
- games

and of course many work related apps of general and bespoke nature ...

and more and more and more.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

On 2023-12-02 02:07, rocco portelli wrote:
> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>
>>> For some reason, they keep telling us that the only reason it was removed
>>> by Apple is that it had been working just fine for a very long time.
>>
>> Apple, Samsung, etc. are removing the headphone jack simply because
>> very few people use it. Most people can't be bothered with tangled
>> cables, so wireless earbuds have become far more popular. In fact the
>> majority of people probably don't use earbuds at all - their phone is
>> used mainly as little more than a high-tech messaging device.
>
> Your excuse for your iPhone not being a capable phone is ridiculous because
> anyone on any phone can add bluetooth earbuds - whether Apple or Samsung.

Why did Samsung remove the jack on many of its higher end phones?

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

>>>>> Your argument is flawed that just because something has been useful for
>>>>> many years, that it's no longer useful only because Apple told you so.
>>>>
>>>> That's not his argument.
>>>
>>> He's repeating it works for far too long for Apple to sell you more
>>> stuff.
>>
>> That's not even a parseable sentence.
>
> Thanks - I jammed on it and decided that ignoring it was a better thing.

You're jamming on your own argument? WTF?

You're constantly making the date alone the entirety of your argument.

Why does the date something that works was invented matter so much to you?

On 12/2/2023 1:14 AM, Your Name wrote:

>> I'm wondering if the reason you whine so much about the iPhone is because
>> no iPhone can do what other phones can do so you're embarrassed about that.
>>
>> You complain that "nobody wants" to save photos.
>> You whine that "nobody needs" to save photos.
> <snip the usual load of trolling bollocks>
>
> I never said any such thing

Then why do you whine so much about sd cards when many cameras use them?

You knew that iPhones can't save to sd cards when you bought it. It's your
fault you bought the iPhone so please stop whining that they lack sd cards.

On 2023-12-02 11:07, rocco portelli wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Your argument is flawed that just because something has been useful for
>>>>>> many years, that it's no longer useful only because Apple told you so.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not his argument.
>>>>
>>>> He's repeating it works for far too long for Apple to sell you more {AAA}
>>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> That's not even a parseable sentence.
>>
>> Thanks - I jammed on it and decided that ignoring it was a better thing.
>
> You're jamming on your own argument? WTF?

No - jammed on your gibberish English above. See: {AAA}

> You're constantly making the date alone the entirety of your argument.

Not at all. The date is just a label for a point in time. Human
perception of time is that it changes in one direction and we experience
time (in part) as thing changing around us. Evolving, improving (though
not always - see: Climate Change).

And (Pro tip follows): If you don't like what Apple does, there is
nobody forcing you to buy their products.

> Why does the date something that works was invented matter so much to you?

I'm not hung up on the date so much as the basic "technology" has been
replaced by better things.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:

>> You're jamming on your own argument? WTF?
>
> No - jammed on your gibberish English above. See: {AAA}

What I said was you are confused by your own argument that the only thing
that seems to matter to you is the date something useful was invented.

>> You're constantly making the date alone the entirety of your argument.
>
> Not at all. The date is just a label for a point in time.

Then stop bringing up the date as if it's the only criteria you have.

> And (Pro tip follows): If you don't like what Apple does, there is
> nobody forcing you to buy their products.

Pro tip to you. I didn't make the mistake of buying an Apple product that
is missing basic things. You did. I'm not making up excuses. You are.

>> Why does the date something that works was invented matter so much to you?
>
> I'm not hung up on the date so much as the basic "technology" has been
> replaced by better things.

What that excuse really means is you can't find anything wrong with it.
So you make your entire argument that it has been working for a long time.

To you, that's bad.

On 2023-12-02 07:07:06 +0000, rocco portelli said:
> Your Name <YourName@YourISP.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> For some reason, they keep telling us that the only reason it was removed
>>> by Apple is that it had been working just fine for a very long time.
>>
>> Apple, Samsung, etc. are removing the headphone jack simply because
>> very few people use it. Most people can't be bothered with tangled
>> cables, so wireless earbuds have become far more popular. In fact the
>> majority of people probably don't use earbuds at all - their phone is
>> used mainly as little more than a high-tech messaging device.
>
> Your excuse for your iPhone not being a capable phone is ridiculous because
> anyone on any phone can add bluetooth earbuds - whether Apple or Samsung.

As I said "Apple, Samsung, etc. are removing the headphone jack"
because every main phone maker has or will be removing the headphone
jack.

Having or not having a headphone jack has very little to do with any
device being a phone. Most statistics reveal only a small minority of
buyers are bothered about the headphone jack. For example:
<https://www.androidauthority.com/ting-headphone-jack-survey-1020924/>

On 2023-12-02 11:32, rocco portelli wrote:
>> And (Pro tip follows): If you don't like what Apple does, there is
>> nobody forcing you to buy their products.
> Pro tip to you. I didn't make the mistake of buying an Apple product that
> is missing basic things. You did. I'm not making up excuses. You are.

And a very basic tip for you:

Features exist to provide functionality. The "basic thing" is the
functionality, not the feature that delivers it.

The headphone jack provides ONE functionality: connecting to audio
devices such as earbuds, earphones, speakers.

The iPhone maintains that functionality.

On 2023-12-02 14:32, rocco portelli wrote:
> Alan Browne <bitbucket@blackhole.com> wrote:
>
>>> You're jamming on your own argument? WTF?
>>
>> No - jammed on your gibberish English above. See: {AAA}
>
> What I said was you are confused by your own argument that the only thing
> that seems to matter to you is the date something useful was invented.

Not confused at all. Oceans of clarity here. And it's not the only
thing that matters. Had you been in on this (and other discussions of
the kind) earlier that would be clear to you.

>
>>> You're constantly making the date alone the entirety of your argument.
>>
>> Not at all. The date is just a label for a point in time.
>
> Then stop bringing up the date as if it's the only criteria you have.

Who said it was the only criteria I have. There are other reasons why
this dated technology should go, including the bulkiness of the female
end of it that takes up precious internal room inside the phone and of
course newer connectors (such as Lightning and USB-C) offer far more
versatility and data bandwidth.

>
>> And (Pro tip follows): If you don't like what Apple does, there is
>> nobody forcing you to buy their products.
>
> Pro tip to you. I didn't make the mistake of buying an Apple product that
> is missing basic things. You did. I'm not making up excuses. You are.

No mistake. I knew it didn't have that audio jack port and I've never
missed the audio-jack port at all. Not once.

As Alan adroitly points out: the functionality is still there. Just the
connector changed. And now offers more functionality.

>>> Why does the date something that works was invented matter so much to you?
>>
>> I'm not hung up on the date so much as the basic "technology" has been
>> replaced by better things.
>
> What that excuse really means is you can't find anything wrong with it.

If all that port had to do was audio, it would be acceptable. But it's
not a port that does one thing anymore. So discard the audio jack and
put in something far more versatile.

> So you make your entire argument that it has been working for a long time.
>
> To you, that's bad.

The reason I bring up the "age" of it is to illustrate that it was a
solution for a time. As things evolve we discard what is better done by
something else.

And of course, if you don't like the absence of the audio jack, that
just limits your choices.

--
“Markets can remain irrational longer than your can remain solvent.”
- John Maynard Keynes.

In message <ukg5gs$2ggh8$1@dont-email.me>
Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2023-12-02 11:32, rocco portelli wrote:
> > > And (Pro tip follows): If you don't like what Apple does, there is
> > > nobody forcing you to buy their products.
> > Pro tip to you. I didn't make the mistake of buying an Apple product that
> > is missing basic things. You did. I'm not making up excuses. You are.
>
> And a very basic tip for you:
>
> Features exist to provide functionality. The "basic thing" is the
> functionality, not the feature that delivers it.
>
> The headphone jack provides ONE functionality: connecting to audio devices
> such as earbuds, earphones, speakers.

The headphone jack used to provide two functionalities to some phones:
connecting audio devices, and connecting an antenna for the FM radio.
Only some phones have FM radio, and I neither know nor care whether
iPhones do.

David